Example of a chat session from a 2009/2010 Latin 2 Session meeting
The names of the participating students have been changed to protect the students' privacy.
Hi there, Bec and Peter!
Hey, Lucy and Peter!
I think this is one of the days that Jill won't be along, so we can go ahead and start with the last of the P&R -- numbers 10-15.
10. Durum exsilium tam acrem mentem uno anno mollire non poterit.
The harsh exile will not be able to soften so harsh a mind in one year.
10. So harsh was exile that he was not able to calm his mind after one year.
If I could make the incorrect words flash, these would be getting your attention now, Peter: was; was not able.
A difficult exile was not able to soften so hard a mind over one year.
The subject of "poterit" is not "he", it's *Durum exsilium*. You've added "was". And notice the tense of "poterit".
Bec, Lucy -- good. For "Durum", though, it's more _harsh_, _rough_, _stern_ -- beyond "difficult". :)
Right, Bec and Lucy.
Did you figure it out, Peter?
10. Harsh exile will not be able to soften so fierce a mind (disposition) in a single year.
Harsh exile will not be able to calm the so harsh mind in one year.
The subject if "Durum exsilium"; verb, "poterit".
That's much better, Peter.
11. Propter omnes rumores pessimos (qui non erant veri), natae suaves eius magnopere dolebant et dormire non poterant.
11. On account of all the very bad rumors, which were not true, the daughters were greatly grieving and could not sleep.
11.Susanuase all the most evil rumors (which were not true) the sweet daughters of him greatly grieved, and were not able to sleep.
Because of all the horrible rumors (which were not true), his sweet daughters were suffering greatly and were not able to sleep.
Okay, good, Lucy.
I like the outcome of "horrible rumors" -- however, more accurately, we might want to acknowledge the superlative form "pessimOs".
Since "dolEbant" is in the category of a verb of emotion, we can translate it as straight past tense, even though the Latin habit was to put it in the imperfect tense.
11. Because of all the very bad rumors (which were not true), his sweet daughters were greatly aggrieved and could not sleep.
12. Si sapientissime non respodisses, pacem offerre dubitavissent.
12. If those philosophers should come soon, you would be happier.
Si illi philosophi veniat, tu sit beatior.
Si illi philosophi mox venient, esset felicior.
(We'll save that for #13, Peter.)
12. Si philosophi mox veniat, beatior sis.
We see, I trust, a "should--would" situation here. Present C-to-F.
Otherwise known as...?
Future less vivid?
Yes, that's what I meant.
Right you are.
Present subjunctive in both clauses.
Pretty good all round.
We need plural "veniant" for the first verb; singular "sIs" or plural "sItis" for the second.
12. SI illI philosophI mox veniant, sIs (sItis) fElIcior/beAtior (fElIciorEs/beAtiorEs).
13. If you had not answered very wisely, they would have hesitated to offer us peace.
Nisi sapientissime respondisses, nobis pacem offerere dubativissent.
13. Si sapientissime non respodisses, pacem offerre dubitavissent.
Contrary to Fact Past: pluperfect subjunctive in both clauses.
Si sapientissime non respondisses, nobis pacem offere dubitavissent.
More likely, though, it's "Nisi" for "If...not". We'll stick with that.
14. If anyone does these three things well, he will live better.
Si quid haec trie res bene faciet, melius vivet.
14. Si quis tres res bene facit, melior vivet.
Si quis hos trie res bene faciet, melior vivet.
Is "res" masculine?
Not "hos" then, "has".
Think of "rEs publica".
Okay, yes, Lucy.
We could say "haec tria" or "hAs trEs rEs".
(More likely, Bec.)
Both work, ja? One's neuter and one's feminine?
Future more vivid, so future tense in both verbs: aget (faciet), vEvet.
Not "quid", though, Bec -- *quis*.
14. SI quis haec tria bene aget (faciet), melius vIvet.
What's the difference between "melius" and "melior"?
nom/acc and gen?
no, that's not right.
(talking about my answer, Lucy. :))
I was thinking that "melius" -- in this context -- is an adverb, and "melior" is an adjective.
melior is needed, then.
*he will live better* -- probably calls for an adverb, unless you're thinking "he will live as a better man."
I think, though, it implies "live better" -- referring to *how* he will live.
*shakes head* sorry, was confusing the two.
This one is a little oblique. I mean, there's no "-ly" to knock us into thinking "adverb". :)
15. If you were willing to read better books, you would most certainly learn more.
Si meliores libros legere velles, plus certissime disceres.
Si meliorem liberi legere velles, plures res certe discereris.
Si melior liber legere volares, plus certissime disceres.
(Keep in mind the forms of "volO", Peter: volO, velle, voluI, ---".)
Here it is:
15. SI librOs meliOrEs legere vellEs (vellEtis), plUs certissimE discerEs (discerEtis).
I think some of your attention went altogether toward forming the verbs, and the easy stuff like direct objects got neglected. :)
Everybody okay with this one?
What kind of Condition is this one?
Indeed it is.
I realize that we never did the SA, right?
Let's take care of these, then.
Okay, Lucy. We'll go on without you. :)
1. Si vis pacem, para bellum.
1. If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
I had a bit of a dilemma this morning. My wireless internet adapter bugged out on me and I was forced to steal a PC's wire so I could connect. I'm afraid I need to leave a bit so I can plug it back in before I leave for class. :( Thing's just aren't working for me this week, are they? Heh.
If you wish for peace, prepare for war.
Oy vey, Bec -- I understand. Sorry about that!
If you wish for peace, get ready for war!
I'm really sorry, too. You guys are too much fun.
2. Arma sunt parvi pretii, nisi vero consilium est in patria.
Swords are of small value, unless there is true counsel in the country.
2. The arms are of small value, unless the plan is truly in the fatherland.
You both have this for the most part...
I just thought about how Peter's would sound if they literally meant "arms".
It made me laugh.
Lucy, "verO" here is an adverb in the positive degree. We can tell that Susanause there's no noun for it to agree with.
Just saying. :)
Weapons...arms...not necessarily swords, though it makes for a nice alliteration: swords...small. :)
Weapons are of little value, unless there truly is wisdom in our country (unless our country has good judgment).
3. Salus omnium una nocte certe amissa esset, nisi illa severitas contra istos suscepta esset.
The health of all (men) will certainly be lost one night, unless we undertake those severe (things) against those (men)?
3. Health would be lost to all by one night, except that sternness against that was taken.
Let's sort out the verb forms.
We have 1) amissa esset, and 2) suscepta esset.
Do those have something in common?
Passive pluperfect subjunctive?
We see that they're both third person singular...do they have the same subject?
No, they don't.
Is this a contrary to fact past thingwhack?
Subject #1 = Salus; subject #2 = severitAs.
It is Contrary to Fact Past, yes.
Can I retranslate mine?
So we would assume we'll translate using the auxiliaries "had" and "would have".
Yes, go for it, Lucy.
Actually, never mind.
I still don't get where "nisi" fits.
Nisi = if not, unless.
Let's try "if...not".
Sorry, I thought perhaps the first try didn't go through.
If the health of all (men) had certainly been lost in one night, severe things would not have been undertaken against those (men)...?
The "if...not" goes with the second clause:
if that severity (severe course of action) had not been undertaken against those men.
The health of all men had certainly been lost in one night, if that severity had not been undertaken against those men. I get it now.
If you also use "would", it's improved: "The safety of all would certainly have been lost in a single night,..."
I have to go now.
Thanks for class!
Okay, bye till next week --
In totO, then:
3. The safety of all would certainly have been lost in a single night, if that severity (severe course of action) had not been undertaken against those men.
Happy with that, Peter?
4. Si quid de me posse agi putabis, id ages—si tu ipse ab isto periculo eris liber.
4. If you think someone to be able to be driven from me, you will drive him -- if you yourself are freed from danger itself. ( I think)
The framework is pretty much intact...there are some particulars of translating, though, that we should adjust.
SI...putAbis: If you think....---?
I meant to write SI...putAbis: If you think....--->
What follows is an indirect question: quid...posse agI: anything to be able to be done.
If you think (that) anything can be done
dE mE = about me
So, all of this is in the indicative so far.
PutAbis = future tense, of course, for this Future More Vivid condition.
Yes, go ahead, Peter
If this is an indirect question, why is "putabis" at the end?
Oh, nevermind. :)
Just realized that question made little sense.
It's okay -- I understand. Trust me, I've done the same thing and wondered why, after I'd done it. :)
And in the protasis (which comes second, in this sentence), the future tense verb is "eris":
so we get "if you will yourself be free from that risk."
4. If you think that anything can be done about me, you will do it – if you will yourself be free from that risk.
How's that? Make sense?
Literally, "If you will think", of course.
It makes sense, now that I know what it means. :)
Heh. 'Twas ever thus.
The key was to recognize the indirect question, I think. All those future indicatives (plus the "SI") pointed to the Future More Vivid.
Let's do one more, then you get an early release. :)
5. Si essem mihi conscius ullius culpae, aequo animo hoc malum ferrem.
5. If I were conscious of any guilt for me, by a fair spirit this evil you would have born.
ER, I would have born.
Okay, you've got the basics here just fine -- the contrary to fact present condition.
Not "would have borne", though -- it's present tense, so just "would bear".
What do you make of *aequO animO*?
I took it to be an ablative of means.
Yes, it could be; or it could be seen as abl. of manner.
I was thinking, "with a calm spirit".
Can you put what you have in a more regular English word order?
5. If I were conscious of any guilt for me, I would bear it with a calm spirit.
There you go.
Another way to put the first part could be "If I were to myself (in my own mind) aware of any crime" -- but yours is good.
culpa -- blame, fault, censure, etc. (not so much "crime", necessarily, now that I think of it)
Okay, we'll carry over numbers 6-9 and the readings to our next meeting -- Monday of next week.
Once you've got the Latin translated, try to compose an English translation that fits into the normal English word order.
Not only will it just sound better, it might reveal any unnoticed errors.
If you read your sentence to yourself, or out loud, and it doesn't sound like something someone would say in English, then it might be time to do some re-considering -- or at least re-ordering. :)
Okay, have a good weekend, Peter!
Thanks for class!
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